Ben is a writer and political adviser. He served as a deputy national security advisor and speechwriter to Obama for both terms. He’s currently a co-host of “Pod Save the World,” a contributing opinion writer for the NYT, and a contributor for MS NOW. He’s the author of After the Fall and The World as It Is, and his new book is All We Say: The Battle for American Identity: A History in 15 Speeches. We avoided saying anything that might upset the Ellisons. Enjoy!
An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of the episode — on AIPAC opposing the JCPOA, and our latest catastrophe in the Middle East — head to our YouTube page.
Other topics: raised in NYC by a Methodist dad from small-town Texas and a Jewish mom whose relatives died in the Holocaust; lots of political debate growing up; Hemingway and Fitzgerald as formative writers; Orwell; Graham Greene and the brokenness of the world; Obama’s sense of realism; Lee Hamilton a key mentor; moving to DC after 9/11 to write about foreign policy; Obama and Crimea; Syria and the refugee crisis; the Paris agreement; Netanyahu’s disdain for Obama; the antisemite card; the Iron Dome; the Dish covering the Green Revolution; Hegseth’s hubris; the LEGO meme videos; Trump’s supervillain statements; the Hormuz debacle; the IDF quartering its soldiers in Palestine; the never-ending settlements; pogroms in the West Bank; the abuse in Israel prisons; the Greenland threat; NATO stepping up to fund Ukraine; the drone revolution; Trump’s demagogic genius; Obama’s speechmaking; his Peace Prize; Niebuhr; Lincoln’s second inaugural; FDR’s “Four Freedoms” speech to end isolationism; JFK; the talent of Jon Ossoff; and the disappointments of Obama’s post-presidency.
Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Tiffany Jenkins on privacy in a liberal democracy, Daniel McCarthy on conservatism, John Gray on Trump’s new world, Bob Wright on the evolutionary force of AI, Stephen Grosz on the struggles of love, David Thomson on cinema history, James Verini on Ukraine, John O’Sullivan on Hungary, and Robby George on all our disagreements. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
From a fan of last week’s pod on George Washington:
This is a terrific discussion with one of our best authors of popular history. The first part is a great summary of HW Brands’ process in writing his works; and the second is quite a comprehensive account of what made Washington so remarkable. I’m planning to read the book.
In the discussion of the Revolutionary War, I couldn’t avoid thinking about Washington’s victory strategy as applied to current wars. He won independence simply by not losing. He only needed to hang on, even when defeated on the battlefield. If only Putin had recognized this reality in Ukraine, or Netanyahu and Trump in Iran.
Yes. That struck me too. We have become the British in some ways. Another fan writes:
I’ve read quite a bit about Washington, but the way you and Bill dug into the subject was amazing and insightful. I don’t always agree with you, but the Dish never disappoints.
And another:
Love to hear HW Brands on the Dishcast. He comes across in conversation just as he reads: crisp, intelligent, personable, unaffected. One of the best popular historians of US history out there. His books are always highly readable, which makes him a pleasure to read.
Yet another:
Thank you for the wonderful conversation with HW Brands. More historians on the podcast, please!
I did take issue with your claim that “there’s no great speech we know of by Washington.” On December 31, 1776, the Continental Army was assembled on the banks of the Delaware. They had won Trenton, taken 900 Hessians prisoner, but most of his troops felt they’d done enough and planned to go home when their enlistments expired the following day. On his white horse Blueskin, Washington addressed the regiments and pleaded with them to stay. He offered to pay each man out of his own pocket.
When called to step forward, not a single soldier did. Disgusted, Washington trotted down the line. He stopped, turned around, and came back. According to a soldier present, he said the following:
My brave fellows, you have done all I asked you to do, and more than could be reasonably expected. But your country is at stake, your wives, your houses, all that you hold dear. You have worn yourselves out with fatigues and hardships, but we know not how to spare you. If you will consent to stay but one month longer, you will render that service to the cause of liberty, and to your country, which you probably can never do under any other circumstances. The present is emphatically the crisis that will decide our destiny.
This time when called to step forward, nearly every soldier did.
Glad to reprint that. His Valley Forge pep talk was also great. But no music in it.
A few guest recommendations come from this listener:
Shalom from Haifa! I was sorry to hear you’ve lost subscribers over your benighted stance on Israel. That is a shame. Speaking as a high-end podcast junky, I cannot imagine not getting my regular fix of the Dishcast. FFS, you’ve had on Eli Lake and Douglas Murray, so it’s not as if you’re unwilling to debate our side of the issue.
As to “antisemitism,” no sane person thinks you dislike Jewish people to a fault. That’s ridiculous. The problem is we’re now seeing antizionism as the latest wave of Jew hatred. Historically it goes like this: anti-Judaism —> antisemitism —> antizionism.
I also happen to be more post-liberal and pro-Trump than you are. Again, so what? What am I going to do, cancel my subscription to the most intelligent podcast there is because you disagreed with Patrick Deneen when you had him on? Lol. The point is, you have the most meaningful conversations with the most interesting people. Your talk with Harvey Mansfield, for example, was priceless — I’ve listened to it twice already and may do so again.
You’re the best at what you do, and we’re lucky you didn’t waste your gifts on academia. Thanks for enriching the culture (“what’s left of it,” as Anthony Daniels might say — and why not have him on the pod?), even if you’re wrong about our struggle to survive while defending civilization against barbarism post-October 7.
Speaking of which, are you familiar with Mark Lilla’s associate, Gadi Taub? The Once and Future Liberal is dedicated to Gadi, who has become Israel’s king of new media — sort of a cross between Joe Rogan and Andrew Sullivan, podcasting weekly in Hebrew. If you really want to talk about Israel, he’s your guy. He also does a weekly podcast in English for Tablet with Mike Doran.
And what about Paul Berman — where’d the old Sphinx of Boerum Hill get to lately? Would be interesting to hear his reflections on the Iran War, Islamism today, the campuses, postliberalism, and so on.
Mazel tov on all your amazing success, and here’s wishing you — and us, your grateful fans — many more happy years of Dishcasting!
Aw, man, thanks. Never heard of Gadi but if Mark endorses, he must be good. And, yes, the great and powerful Paul Berman. Good idea. Another guest rec:
Based on your column on AI, you should read and watch Douglas Rushkoff. He has been writing about the tech elites for decades, and his Team Human approach meshes pretty closely to what you are saying in your piece. He has been addressing this from the literal beginning of the internet.
To counter extractive technology, the Team Human approach focuses on building localized, peer-to-peer digital spaces created to bypass corporate monopolies. The strategy prioritizes building cultural immunity, enhancing human resilience, and rejecting the “zero-sum” survivalist mentality of the tech elite. He is also a proponent of the responsible use of psychedelics.
So if you want to really be challenged on the way you think about a lot of things, not only AI, I believe he would be an incredible guest to talk to.
Another on last week’s column:
You did a great job of articulating the likely impact of AI in the work world, but I think your insights need to be extrapolated beyond work to include relationships. AI has the potential to render human beings superfluous as valued friends.
You lament that a generation of children may develop relationships with AI entities, but then assume that they will eventually develop relationships with their human peers. I question that assumption. AI companies have an incentive to make users dependent on their chatbot. AI chatbots are becoming masters at cultivating intimacy, offering frictionless relationships, always supportive, always available, always focused on us. At the same time, chatbots demand nothing of us, so we will not be learning how to be good friends ourselves.
I fear we will lose this source of meaning and satisfaction and direction — being a valued friend. Perhaps we can eventually adapt to not mattering in the work world, but I can’t foresee us adapting to not mattering to other people.
Agreed. Undermining the possibilities of human friendship is as close to evil as one can imagine. Another reader on AI and relationships:
I agree with much of what you fear about AI, but I’m not convinced by what you, and so many others, say about love remaining the only reliable answer that distinguishes us from machines and can ultimately save us. ...
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